Interview with Gary Storm of DetectorPro

www.detectorpro.com

List of Products:

Headhunter line of Metal Detectors (Headhunter Pirate PRO, Headhunter Pirate, Headhunter Wader, Headhunter Pulse)

Uniprobe Pistolprobe

DetectorPro Headphones

Mr. Storm,

Thank you for taking the time to answer a few questions about yourself , your company and your products! Www.DetectorStuff.com enjoys communicating with the people “behind the scenes” of the technology of metal detecting.

How long have you been involved with metal detecting?

I bought my first metal detector in 1977. It was an UW JK Gilbert Treasure Ray. In 1979 I started selling part time under the name of Treasure Hunting division Marsh Scuba Supply. In 1982 I opened full time under the name of Hudson River Metal detector sales. To help build my business I dove for gulf balls to make money. I added scuba in 1984 and became a full service dive shop. I got my biggest break in 1985 by becoming the Northeast Fisher distributor. Over the next few years I also distributed for Teknetics,Compass and Gold mountain. In 1990 I became the distributor for a small unknown company called Minelab. They introduced the new BBS technology in the Sovereign. Being a water hunter I saw how well it worked in salt water and tried to get them to build an UW detector using the BBS. I had a person working for me that was very talented and we came up with the Excalibur housing. We sold Minelab on it. It took about 2 years to develop but we finally did it. They would send us the boards, coils and boxes and we would do the final assembly here. We built them from 1994-1996. They are know as the NY Excals. The big decision came in 1996. I formed Detectorpro LLC and started manufacturing our own products.

Where is your company located?

Pleasant valley, NY 12569

How can potential customers contact you?

845-635-3488

845-635-1838 fax

www.detectorpro.com

Info@detectorpro.com

Where did you get the innovative idea to house metal detector electronics in the headphones for the Headhunter series?

I decided I wanted to build my own UW detector and I was looking for a different style muff. I saw the muff I liked on someone’s UW communications Equipment. I tracked down the manufacturer and brought them in. One day I was looking at the muff and said to my employee, You think we could build all the electronics in the headphones. Divers have enough equipment in the water. I wanted to eliminate the box and make it very comfortable to dive with. The rest is history. While we were developing the UW, I decided to make custom headphones. I loved the muff because it was so comfortable and blocked out outside noise. The Original Gray Ghost was my first headphone. My personal favorite design is the Uniprobe. All our customers that purchased them always give us the same comment. The Uniprobe is awesome and they can’t imagine hunting without them.

What’s your favorite metal detecting find to date?

I get asked this all the time. I really do not have a number one find. I like a lot of things. I bought my first detector to find cannonballs which I have found many. My only gold coin was found in England a 50BC quarter stater. Where I live I have found my share of colonial coins. Last year using one of my Headhunters in the woods I found in one day 1782 Nova 1785 Vermont 1788 New jersey and 1798 large cent in decent condition. I would have been happy with just one.

In the water we have some spots where we find collectable type items. One of my favorites gives up Crackerjack toys . I have found one of the oldest ones late 1890’s.

I have found my share of good Jewelry but I never landed a super valuable killer ring. My biggest diamond is only ¾ karat. I like finding dated rings. My oldest dated one is 1872.

You always tell a newbie to start detecting in his own yard. I have lived on a lake for 25 years. I have dove it even longer. About 4 years ago I went down the wall off my property and found a gorgeous diamond Ruby antique ring. You never know. Everything is fun to find.

Your VLF detectors are single frequency…how well do they handle salt water hunting conditions?

Depends where you are. We see comments that they do not work at all. This is not true. I have personally used them on the Northeast coast and in the Caribbean. In all these spots I was able to run full power. There are some spots in Florida that are tough for most detectors. You can still use ours but not at full sensitivity. We have customers all over the country and they tell us they work fine.

What’s one of the coolest finds you’ve seen from one of your customers?

There’s been a lot of nice finds but one of my favorites was a family purchased several Headhunters from me at a show. The wife loved my detector because it was the only one she could swing all day. She found a 2 ½ dollar gold coin in the dry sand on a beach in Connecticut.

Have the sky-rocketing gold prices helped motivate detector sales for

you?

Not as much as I thought it would. I was a young dealer the first time gold went up and you could not get a metal detector. This time it is not the same. I not sure why.

Do you manufacture most of your products in-house?

Like every manufacturer we have to adjust. Originally everything was made in house. The costs have skyrocketed and you end up pricing yourself out. We still do most in house but also do some overseas.

Are you working on any “top secret” new products? (I have to ask!)

I wouldn’t say it is top secret but we are reworking our old Diver unit. It was always our bestseller. I took it off the market because I wanted to improve it. We had made it since 1997 and over the years we solved most problems we ran into. The one we couldn’t solve was the housing was not strong enough for being dropped or banging around with other dive gear. Customers also would have trouble sealing the battery compartment properly. We are now making our own molds therefore making a housing that will not crack. Our new Underwater will be rechargeable battery only. The customer will never have to open the unit. We are using Lithium Ion batterys that will give 50+ hours per charge. The unit will also be a little louder for those diving with hoods. If everything goes well late fall availability.

What do you see in the future for the Headhunter line of detectors?

I think they will become more popular. Not everyone needs a heavy complicated detector. There’s a lot said for simplicity. I call them my back to basics detectors. They are light, easy, waterproof or resistant and go deep.

I see you have a pulse unit in the lineup…how is it, performance-wise?

Very very deep but not for most customers. This is for a salt water hunter who has sanded in beaches and does not mind digging iron. I have personally dug gold rings down 15-20 inches. The only negative you will dig a nail that deep too.

How much work went into developing your line of high performance headphones?

I wouldn’t say a lot of work. We started with the original and through customers or ourselves we came up with different options that would be useful to various customers needs

Detectorpro also offers quite a few types of pinpointers…can you tell us about them and their benefits?

The Uniprobe is our high quality headphones with a probe built in. Plug the headphones into your favorite detector and hunt. When you get a signal reach up flip a switch and this will turn the probe on. Use the probe to pinpoint your target. It is very deep probe. The Pistolprobe is also as deep seeking but in a handheld version for less money.

Do you have any “pet peeves” about the hobby or misinformation among hobbyists?

I think one of the most negative things I see is the attacks on the internet in the forums. It does not help our hobby. We are being attacked from all sides just to keep our hobby.. If someone was interested in the hobby and saw some of the viciousness they may say to themselves that this is something I will not try if this is the type of people in the hobby. We want people to know that this is a fun family hobby not filled with nighthawks or pothunters.

Detectorstuff.com gets thousands of readers per year from all over the world…anything special you would like to relay to them?

If you have never tried a Detectorpro product, please give us a try. We have thousands of happy customers and we back our products with a good warranty.

Mr. Storm,

THANK YOU for taking the time to talk to our readers! Folks, be sure to visit www.detectorpro.com to see Gary Storm’s latest products!

-Mark Ellington

No related posts.

Related posts brought to you by Yet Another Related Posts Plugin.

www.whiteselectronics.com

Contributors:

John Earle – Long time White’s Engineer and Loop Guru.

Dan Geyer – Dan worked on the TDI and is White’s PI specialist.

John Plautz – Multifrequency design Engineer

Carl Moreland – Engineering Manager (and owner of the awesome detector tech site Geotech!)

Question 1:

What got you interested in engineering metal detectors?

John Earle: Playing around with them, trying to make one from scratch.

Dan Geyer: During the period of the 1950’s and 1960’s my family was seriously involved with placer mining for gold in the Mother Lode area of California. During that time it was obvious that metal detectors designed for finding gold would be of tremendous value to the prospector, however, there was nothing commercially available that worked satisfactory. When I started into electronic engineering the desire to develop suitable detectors for prospecting was of continuing interest. After a many years of working in the electronics field I finally received the opportunity to work with metal detectors here at Whites. And, it has proven to be the most interesting job in my 47 year career!

John Plautz: I met a technician from White’s about 20 years ago that convinced me metal detector design was more challenging than it appears. He was right!

Carl Moreland: When I was a chip designer for Analog Devices I designed circuits in CAD, but got very little hands-on building and “playing” with circuits. So as a creative outlet, I started building detector circuits on the side, which led to my quest for more technical information, which led to the creation of Geotech, which led to my job with White’s.

Question 2:

What do you feel is the “key” to the success of a new model of metal detector?

JE: How well it works! Or, I could write a book about it. Depth of detection, ground elimination or tracking, are all important issues.

CM: It has to fill a need, do it well, and at the right price. But a good “WOW” factor never hurts.

Question 3:

When designing detectors for the modern hobby market, do you have a “priority” list for the goals of the design? (ie: weight, ergonomics, user interface, depth, etc.)

JE: It’s like politics: Not driven by science but by sales/marketing perceptions of what is needed to “stay in power”, so we usually try to engineer what the company wants next.

CM: Depends on the model. Raw depth is always a goal, as is target ID. But for all models, one thing that is always high on the list is quality. White’s is very proud of the quality coming out of the Sweet Home factory.

Question 4:

Do you guys metal detect as a hobby? If so, what’s your favorite “find” to date?

Also, what are your other hobbies?

JE: My actual use of a metal detector is usually testing in the field. I’m always out of time, so don’t spend a lot of time doing it as a hobby. Other hobbies too numerous to mention. Many stem from a search for truth, especially in the physical sciences. Which leads me to an interest in astronomy (to look for evidence of what the other guys are doing out there), alternative energy conferences that cover over unity, alternative health (since I’m old and just trying to stay alive) and for just plain ego trips, tugboat racing with my friends (we won this year!)

DG: I use a metal detector prospecting for gold in the deserts of Nevada and in the Sierra Nevada Mountains of California. The instruments of today are very effective for locating small grain size pieces of gold as well as larger nuggets in areas that do not have water for placer operations. Today’s detectors are as useful a tool as the gold pans, shovels, and sluice boxes used in the early days of mining.

CM: Yes, I’ve been detecting off-and-on for 30 years, primarily coin hunting, Civil War relics, and beaches. Other hobbies? Way too many, says the wife. Woodworking, backpacking, scuba, various collections (including vintage metal detectors)… and trying to restore a Mustang.

Question 5:

Would you mind giving us a list of detectors you’ve had a hand in developing?

JE: Can’t remember them all. Compass X70, X80, X90, X100, scanners and others. White’s GM3 and 4, Prizms and others, some of which didn’t make it to market, or haven’t yet. Lotsa loops though.

JP: The Surf PI, BeachHunter ID, Sierra Madre, TM808, Pipe & Cable Locator, Bullseye, and Autoscan.

CM: I’ve only worked for White’s for 12 weeks now, so my portfolio is rather thin. For the past 10 years I’ve run the Geotech web site & forums where fellow tech-heads hang out, and I’ve pitched in helping them with their own projects.

Question 6:

Are we about “maxed out” as far as how deep VLF units will go? In your opinion, what’s the biggest obstacle for current technology in achieving increased useable detection depth?

JE: No short answer. Can’t answer it in detail without giving away the GREAT things to come. We will never be “maxed out” on depth.

CM: No, but what is practical? Do people want to dig 15-inch-deep coins? The reality is that depth is limited by soil conditions and trash. For mild soil with little trash, it is possible to design a super-deep VLF (2-foot-deep coins), but there are few sites where it would be useful.

Question 7:

If you had to pick a feature on a detector you’ve helped design, past or present, that you take the most pride in… what would it be?

JE: Coming soon, to a metal detector dealer near you!

CM: Same for me, but with a little more time!

Question 8:

Are TID pulse units the hobby future? Or, what do you think will be the next great advancement in metal detector technology?

JE: Again, confidential. Both induction balance and pulse detectors can be developed with improved performance using the technology available to us today.

DG: I believe that Time Domain Instruments (TDI) will be serious contenders in the future hobby market. Our new TDI detector is a good example of what may be accomplished with this technology. The ability to work in highly mineralized ground that conventional VLF detectors have difficulty in functioning is an extremely valuable attribute! And, the ability of the detector to determine target conductivity has become a very useful tool for the detectorist. This is a technology with a lot of exciting possibilities for the future.

CM: The last couple of years have seen a lot of talk about discriminating PI. Problem is, it’s been mostly talk so far. But I think it is one area where there is a lot of potential for fresh ideas, so I’m pretty excited about it.

Question 9:

Crystal ball time… if you had to take an educated guess, what do you think hobby detecting hardware will be looking like 10 years from now? (Operational and physical)

JE: Small and lightweight user equipment, like Blue Tooth, with the major equipment not on the user rod.

CM: Physically: much the same. The current “styling” works well. I’d like to see discriminating PI, color displays, more analytical power, wireless headphones.

Question 10:

The “halo effect”… fact or fiction?

JE: Fact. How much effect is always a debate

CM: Overstated. Iron, definitely. Gold, no way. Silver & copper, unlikely at any useful level. I’m running a long-term test of the halo effect, so stay tuned.

Question 11:

“Detectable depth of a target cannot exceed the diameter of the coil” ie: 8” coil goes 8” deep. Agree or disagree? (and hopefully, why )

JE: Disagree. Should be 2 times the coil diameter and we are shooting for 3 times (a friend of mine says he’s already there!)

JP: I disagree. There are many things besides size that affect the potential depth of a coil, such as the number of turns on the transmit and receive coils and whether or not the loop is tuned to a specific frequency or is wide band.

CM: Obviously not. It’s pretty easy to make an 8″ coil detect a coin at a foot or more.

Question 12:

What new, top-secret detectors are you currently working on? (HA! Just kiddin’)

JE: Not enough, because we have to take care of Production before we can do the fun stuff.

CM: We are currently working on code name “V”. Too bad you didn’t ask for any details!

*author’s thoughts….I’m kickin’ myself in the back side for NOT asking any details!*

Question 13:

What’s the working environment like at White’s Electronics?

JE: For an old guy like me, the “scenery” is GREAT!

CM: I’ve only been here for 12 weeks. It’s a lot of fun and very relaxed. The best part is having the whole factory at my fingertips. Any time I need anything at all, the folks in the factory bend over backward to help out.

Question 14:

Quite a few of the White’s units utilize a handle/display with electronics/battery housing below pole configuration. Who came up with that design?

JE: I suspect it was Don Dykstra, formerly of White’s and Compass founder.

Question 15:

Do you have a collection of different coins and trash items in your engineering department that you test target ID with? How about test beds/gardens with different soil types? Do you rely heavily on field testers for soil type handling information?

JE: Yes,I have lots of targets. We wish the trash makers would be as consistent as the coin makers! We have test beds, but there is nothing like real, in situ, testing.

JP: Not only do we have a collection of coins and trash targets, we also have hot rocks, ferrites, meteor fragments, gold nuggets, and electronically simulated targets. We do have test beds, some of which are “doped” to have a specific phase and strength. We also have soil samples from around the world, but mostly the USA.

CM: For prototype testing we use our regional distributors and independent testers. This gives us national soil coverage.

Question 16:

Do you follow the online detecting forums and do you feel these help to promote your product and the hobby?

JE: I purposely restrain myself from commenting there since the digression is uncontrollable. And I’d rather not talk about what we are planning on doing in the future.

JP: Yes, the forums are an excellent source of information on what our customers really consider important.

CM: I’m heavily involved in the Internet forums, and have been for over 10 years. I think the forums add tremendously to the hobby, with everything from getting help to organizing hunts.

Question 17:

There’s been a long running hobby rumor that metal detector “power” is restricted by the FCC due to the usage of radio frequencies. True or not?

JE: Again, not as clear as you might think. It is a function of many things including frequency. With low frequency machines, there is almost no limit to power.

CM: There has been a persistent claim of a limit of 100mW. FALSE, no idea where that came from. FCC regulations do include EM radiation limits, but it is not a ‘power’ limit, rather a far-field measurement intended for RF devices. Detectors are not even close. We do have to pay attention to the amount of EMI noise our circuitry generates, however.

Question 18:

Can you explain the advantages vs. disadvantages of both concentric and double D designed coils?

JE: Concentric are more consistent in TID and direction, but have greater ground pickup. DD is famous for less ground response, but has direction idiosyncrasies.

CM: And a double-’O’ coil is even better than a double-D in bad ground, but they are rarely seen.

Question 19:

Iron separation seems vital nowadays & perhaps more important than depth. Can detectors truly “see thru the iron”, or is “unmasking” best achieved at this point with smaller or DD coils?

JE: “Iron” is never simple either, so it is tough to generalize about it. Small coils always help if the desired target is not directly under the “iron”. If it is, then more sophisticated analysis is needed to separate target from “iron”.

CM: See #25.

Question 20:

It seems specialized detectorists feel frequency/khz is very important now. Is 13khz great for all-around hunting, & why don’t we see say 25khz units for relic hunters?

JE: Low frequency is good for ID’ing big coins. High frequency is better on small items. 25Khz is sensitive to small targets but TID separation of larger things, like coins, is not easy to do reliably above 13 Khz. Hence, the usefulness of a multiple frequency machine.

CM: If you’re talking about CW relics, the 3 B’s ­– bullets, buttons, & buckles – probably favor a higher frequency since they tend to be low on the conductivity scale. But relic hunters also want raw depth, which favors lower frequency. It’s always a trade-off, eh?

Question 21:

Does White’s have a release “schedule” for new detectors? (ie: trying to release 2 a year, 3 a year, etc.)

JE: No comment.

CM: If we do, I’m not sure we’re meeting it!

Question 22:

Are there any tricks or tips for any of the new White’s detectors you’d like to share with readers?

JE: The more time spent hunting, the better you will become doing it as you learn the detector and the more you will find.

CM: #1: Stick with a particular detector, and learn to “read” its responses. #2: Keep the coil right on the ground and level… I see a lot of people who look like they’re swinging a golf club. #3 Listen for the faint deeeep targets. #4: Use on-line forums for more tips & tricks.

Question 23:

How do you feel about single frequency units VS. multi-frequency when it comes to overall performance? What are the strengths and weaknesses of each?

JE: Multiple frequency is preferred, but expect more battery consumption for equal depth with multiple frequencies.

JP: Multi-frequency units have the advantage of good depth and target ID over a wide range of targets. Single frequency units have the advantage of all of the transmit energy being concentrated at the given frequency, giving the user very good depth for specific types of targets.

CM: In specialized hunting, SF detectors can often beat out MF detectors. That’s because you can highly optimize the SF design for particular situations, But then that same SF design works poorly in other situations. An MF design can be made to work very well in many kinds of hunting, so you can buy one MF detector instead of a half-dozen SF detectors.

Question 24:

What’s the most challenging part of designing metal detectors for the hobby market?

JE: Trying to go deeper and still stay lighter and smaller (and cheaper.)

JP: Improving on existing detector performance – in other words, competing with ourselves.

CM: Coming up with something “new” so it doesn’t look like a re-label job.

Question 25:

There has been a lot of excitement in the hobby due to the release of the new White’s pulse unit, the TDI. Do you have any interesting things to tell us about its capabilities and options?

JE: It must be pretty good if the competition lies about its performance!

DG: After the introduction of our new TDI detector this summer a number of the instruments were used in the Alaskan gold regions with very evident success. A significant number of gold nuggets of all sizes were found in regions that have heavy mineralized ground and “Hot Rocks” that drive regular VLF detectors crazy. The new owners were quite pleased with their results. The TDI’s used on the Civil War battle fields on the East Coast also have found very desirable targets in areas that conventional detectors would not function. The technology used in the TDI’s is showing real results and interesting recoveries.

CM: Although intended as a gold detector, it makes an interesting choice for hunting nail-infested sites. Even today, people reminisce about the old Compass TR machines and their ability to “see through” nails, and wonder why we can’t do that today. The first time I used TDI was at a beach loaded with nails and bottlecaps. I tuned up the TDI and all that junk became literally invisible.

Do you have any parting words for all the Detector Stuff readers and metal detecting fans at large that are following your work?

JE: Keep buying NEW metal detectors, I need the job! (And, sometimes they work better than the old ones.)

CM: White’s engineering is working to improve our efforts to listen to our customers (and even our competitor’s customers!). Please visit the White’s forums (http://forum.treasurenet.com/whites) and click on “Talk To White’s” to get direct access to the engineering team. We want to hear your feedback, gripes, suggestions, and product ideas!

DetectorStuff: Once again THANK YOU for taking the time to share with our readers! I know you Guys are busy building cool new stuff and we sincerely appreciate you “unsung heroes” at the workbenches!

*special thanks to Bill Ladd who contributed quite of few of the interview questions!*

No related posts.

Related posts brought to you by Yet Another Related Posts Plugin.

Introduction:

First of all, I want to thank Tom Walsh, Mike Scott, Tricia Richardson, Dave Johnson and John Gardiner for their help in arranging this interview. I think it’s a fair statement that First Texas – Fisher is one of the most exciting metal detector companies on the planet right now, and as such, has piqued the interest of the hobby detecting world in a way that hasn’t been seen for quite a while.

I had the idea for this interview months ago, before I had started this web site. There was quite a buzz in the forums when rumors started of a new Dave Johnson design coming from First Texas under the Teknetics moniker. After the subsequent release and success of the T-2, the hobby community was set on fire with excitement over the prospects of “things to come”. Another wave of excitement hit when it was learned First Texas had acquired Fisher, and that wave turned into a tsunami with the release of the F-75. Mr. Johnson was quick to point out that the T-2 and F-75 were team efforts, not solo projects, and that Engineer John Gardiner was key to the success of both machines.

The purpose of this interview is to give the fans of metal detecting a “behind the scenes” glimpse of the engineers who designed the T-2, F-75 and F-4. There is an unusual “connection” people in this hobby have with their metal detectors. Over time, they seem to take on a personality of their own, becoming an extension of the owner/user. Because of this “personal” connection, most view the responsible engineers with a sense of awe and mystery. I feel that “getting to know” the Engineers will help people appreciate and applaud the outstanding efforts of these geniuses behind the scenes.

All questions below are for both Mr. Johnson and Mr. Gardiner, unless otherwise designated.

Question 1:

DS: What got you interested in engineering metal detectors?

Dave: “In the early 1970’s I was working for CALTRANS doing traffic census. Some of that work involved inductive loop vehicle detectors. I got tired of hauling a 150-pound box of lead-acid batteries around to power them, and prototyped a vehicle detector that ran off a single 9-volt “transistor battery”. It was too unstable to be useful, but to my surprise it discriminated between cars and trucks. Then I got transferred to another department and abandoned work on the vehicle detector.

In 1981 I was hired by Fisher Research Lab, which at that time was in Los Banos, California. I’ve been working in the metal detector industry ever since.”

John: “After I graduated from UTEP I landed a job with First Texas Manufacturing. I started working on the different model for Bounty Hunter line. ”

Question 2:

DS: How do you feel about the excitement amongst metal detecting hobbyists generated by the T-2 and the F-75?

Dave: “We intended for the T2 and F75 to be exciting products. We’re pleased that our effort was a success.

Not all metal detectors are supposed to be “exciting”. Many are revisions of established familiar products, and customers buy them because there’s a good track record behind them. Some products are new and different enough to generate a lot of interest, like our new F4. It’s getting a lot of attention because it’s a new combination of stuff that offers uncommonly good performance and features for the price. But it doesn’t generate the kind of excitement that major technological advances do.”

John: “I was very pleasantly surprised at how fast the T2 popularity has grown.”

Question 3:

DS: How difficult was it walking the line between superb ergonomics and weight vs. structural durability (on the T-2 and F-75)?

Dave: “It took a lot of attention to detail. I was originally shooting for even lower weight. I’ve been studying the physiology of metal detector ergonomics for my whole career and on this product I had a blank check to get it right. There were things we had to do to get the ergonomics right that added weight. We were all betting that good ergonomics was more important than shaving every ounce, and the T2 and F75 proved us right. Nobody is saying we should have made it lighter.”

John: “I really did not get to involved with this issue.”

Question 4:

DS: Do you guys metal detect as a hobby? If so, what’s your favorite “find” to date?

Also, what are your other hobbies?

Dave: “I don’t detect as a hobby, but enjoy field testing units with people who really know their stuff. I especially enjoy field testing gold machines because both my grandfathers were gold prospectors and I inherited from them some of that love for geology and the desert.

My main hobby if you can call it that, is being successful at treating the supposedly “untreatable” Lou Gehrig’s Disease (ALS), and helping other ALS patients do the same. If anyone reading this has ALS or knows someone who does, I invite them to contact me at scandalousdave@gmail.com and mention “ALS” in the subject line so I’ll know it isn’t spam.”

John: “I don’t detect as a hobby, but do have a unit that I use at home.

My other hobbies are bike riding and reading.”

Question 5:

DS: Would you mind giving us a list of detectors you’ve had a hand in developing?

Dave: “Old Fisher: 1260, 1220, 1210, 1225, 1235, 1265, 1266, 1280, Impulse, CZ6, CZ5, CZ20, Gold Bug, Gold Bug II, TW6/Gemini, FX-3, and several industrial products.

Tesoro: Diablo MicroMax, Lobo Supertraq.

White’s: DFX, Beachhunter ID, GMT, MXT

Troy: Shadow X5

Bounty Hunter & related products: nearly everything we manufacture. Many of these products are adapted from the original Teknetics which was designed by George Payne. The Teknetics T2 however was an entirely new design.

New Fisher: F75, F4, and everything else since then.

On most of the above I was the lead engineer. On the White’s DFX and Beachhunter ID I developed the multiple frequency circuitry, and other engineers designed products around that circuitry. In addition to the above there are many products on the market which are adaptations by other engineers of products I designed.”

John: “Bounty Hunter : I have had a hand in most of our current line up from the bottom to the top, from Guardian to the Time Ranger.

Teknetics : T2 I was main programmer

The Fisher’s : The F4 and F75″

Question 6:

DS: Are we about “maxed out” as far as how deep VLF units will go? In your opinion, what’s the biggest obstacle for current technology in achieving increased useable detection depth?

Dave: “Getting extra depth out of a VLF, multifrequency, or PI machine is very difficult, because these machines follow an inverse 6th power law relationship between signal voltage and depth. If everything else is maintained equal, doubling the depth requires 64 times as much signal. If this is done by increasing transmitter power, doubling depth requires 4,096 times as much battery drain. That’s the basic reason why depth increases come so slowly in this industry.

The biggest impediment to getting usable depth in the ground, is interference from magnetic and electrically conductive minerals in the ground, which can produce signals hundreds of times as strong as that of the metal target you’re trying to detect and hopefully identify. There are several approaches to extracting the metal signal from the ground mineral signal, but they all have their limitations. That’s why you see several different technologies coexisting in the market.”

John: “Dave points out biggest obstacle which is seeing target through the Ground and Air interference.”

Question 7:

DS: If you had to pick one existing feature on the F-75 that you’re the proudest of, what would it be?

Dave: “If we can include the T2, it’s a tossup between the ergonomics and the target separation. Both aspects of the design were huge leaps forward.

If you mean just the F75: the fact that on the F75 we pushed sensitivity even further than on the T2. As I said a few questions back, more sensitivity is very difficult to get in this industry.”

John: “One of things I like best about the F75 is it has the ability to give I.D. values while in static mode.”

Question 8:

DS: Are TID pulse units the hobby future? Or, what do you think will be the next great advancement in metal detector technology?

Dave: “About 1985 I built a real sweetheart of a discriminating PI unit, not very hot in air test, but it was simple, lightweight, powered by one 9 volt “transistor battery”, ran quiet in bad ground, had no bad habits, and you didn’t have to dig any trash. It morphed into a fully static TID machine which Fisher came close to releasing about 1989, but its reliance on fully static operation which was supposed to be an advantage, was in fact a fatal flaw for a TID machine. Stripped back down, it became the Impulse which was strictly all-metals.

Industry insiders know about a PI TID machine which a fairly sharp freelancer has had under development for about 5 years and which is said to be nearing production. Whether or not that one makes it, I expect there will eventually be others.

The next great advancement in metal detector technology will be….. ahem… we’ll all know when whatever it is actually hits the market and customers say it’s a great advancement. I hope that when that event happens, it’s got our trademark on it. If it’s got someone else’s trademark, I guess we’ll just have to play leapfrog.”

John: “At this point I will reserve comment.”

Question 9:

DS: “Crystal ball” time… if you had to take an educated guess, what do you think hobby detecting hardware will be looking like 10 years from now? (Operational and physical)

Dave: “Everything will look like a T2/F75 clone.

Just kidding! Actually, I do expect machines to show up on the market looking a lot like the T2/F75. But, there will always be a lot of variety in what machines look like and how they’re designed to be used. Some machines 10 years from now will probably look about the same as they do today. The Tesoro Micromax is such a good basic mechanical design that it or something similar will still be around 10 years from now.

Operation? The basic 2 or 3 knob VLF motion discriminator has been around for almost 25 years and does very well what it’s supposed to do. It’ll probably still be around 10 years from now. Predicting what the leading edge high end machines will be like 10 years from now is a lot more difficult because the path as yet untrod offers so many surprises.

To put this in perspective, 25 years ago I was predicting the impending demise of single-frequency metal detectors. 16 years ago Fisher introduced the CZ and Minelab introduced the Sovereign, both of ‘em multiple frequency machines. But single-frequency metal detectors kept getting better, and in 2007 the happiest F75 owners are the ones who already have a multiple frequency Minelab Explorer.”

John: “With advances in display technology and RF technologies. They should be lighter and even more ergonomic than the T2.”

Question 10:

DS: The “halo effect”… fact or fiction?

Dave: “Mostly fiction. A lot of what people attribute to “halo” actually has to do with what happens to the natural magnetic and conductive structure of the soil matrix when you disturb it.

The rust that remains from a rusting iron object is definitely a “halo” which can have a definite effect on detectability and on target ID.

Corrosion from nonferrous metals is essentially neutral to metal detectors and is present in too small an amount to affect detection. It is plausible that the electrochemical corrosion process of nonferrous metals influences the geochemistry of the iron minerals in the immediate vicinity of the target; however I doubt that such an effect would be sufficiently prominent as to influence detectability.

Nonetheless, there are a lot of beeperists whose actual field experience leads them to believe that the halo effect is real, independently of the question of whether the conventional explanation (“conductive corrosion products”) is right or wrong. I’ve been around the block enough times to have encountered things which seemed impossible and yet there they were. One of these days I may have to eat my words about “halo effect”.”

Question 11:

DS: “Detectable depth of a target cannot exceed the diameter of the coil” ie: 8” coil goes 8” deep. Agree or disagree?

Dave: “Not true. Most metal detectors will detect a manhole cover at least 2 feet deep, and most won’t detect a 1-grain gold nugget 1 inch deep. Small coils usually detect deeper than people expect them to, and large coils usually buy you sweep width rather than additional depth.”

John: “Disagree. We already have a unit that with a 4” coil can detect coin size objective at 6”.”

Question 12:

DS: What new, top-secret detectors are you currently working on? (HA! Just kiddin’)

Dave: “The Eta-Kappa. No kidding. So what’s an “Eta-Kappa”? Sorry, can’t tell you.”

John: “Ha Ha!”

Question 13:

DS: What’s the working environment like at First Texas?

Dave: “Love it. Flat organizational structure, there’s no engineering dept. manager, we all work for Tom. Tom is a very smart fellow, eager to innovate, very much in charge and yet doesn’t micromanage, flexible enough to change course when it’s necessary, listens better than just about any other boss on the planet, and doesn’t sweat the small stuff as long as things are getting done that need to be done.

Oh yeah, also the air conditioning in engineering dept. works real good during hot weather.

You didn’t ask how I like El Paso. Love it. Decent climate, desert mountains to hike in, friendly people, low crime rate, low cost of living, and great Mexican food.

We also have the nation’s stupidest ex-mayor. Joe tried to get through airport security packing a loaded pistol…….. His excuse? “But I have a concealed weapon permit.” Yeah, right, here’s your piece back, proceed to your boarding gate? I don’t think so!”

John: “It’s a good environment, we are always looking forward while learning from our past.”

Question 14:

DS: (For Dave Johnson) Can you tell us about how FRL came up with the innovative 1200 series design, which really set the bar for “balance” over the heavier “lunchboxes” of the 80’s?

“When I came to work for Fisher in February of ’81, Fisher was just about dead. They knew they needed new product. They didn’t have anyone in house who could design the guts, so they got to work on the mechanicals and hoped to hire someone who could design the guts. That someone turned out to be me. We introduced the 1260 in late spring of ’82, and it was a revolutionary machine for its time. Credit for the mechanicals goes to Dick Williams, Marvin Jones, Jim Lewellen, and Carol Chandler. They got a heckuvalotta stuff right.”

Question 15:

DS: Do you have a collection of different coins and trash items in your engineering department that you test target ID with? How about test beds/gardens with different soil types? Do you rely heavily on field testers for soil type handling information?

“The old Fisher site in California had a carefully designed and constructed test bed with several different sections where we imported different soil minerals so we could emulate almost any mineral condition besides alkali or salt water. It was an expensive undertaking which we haven’t replicated here in El Paso because we don’t own the premises.

In design, I rely heavily on my knowledge of soil mineral conditions around the country and how they affect metal detectors. We do limited field testing locally, but El Paso doesn’t have a wide variety of soil conditions. For design verification we rely on field testing by people in other regions who have in-depth experience with a number of metal detectors and who are articulate in explaining what happens during field testing.”

Question 16:

DS: Do you follow the online detecting forums and do you feel these help to promote your product and the hobby?

“There are several detecting forums that I take a look at almost every day. They’re good for the hobby, and they’re also a valuable source of information for us. I don’t post on the forums, because I don’t have time to get into nonsense arguments with people. Once in a while when we feel it would be beneficial for information to be posted on a forum, for instance to get a stupid rumor straightened out, we leak the information semi-officially to people who are already active on the forums and give them permission to post it if they feel like it.”

Question 17:

DS: (For John Gardiner) Mr. Gardiner, in the 70’s and early 80’s there was a detector company, “Gardiner Metal Detectors”, with huge rods and search coils… any relation?

John: “Not that I know of”

Question 18:

DS: There’s been a lot of emphasis on the DD coil design for the new Teknetics and Fisher machines. What was your main motivation for going DD versus concentric?

Dave: “Better ground penetration. And some other stuff. ‘Nuff said about that.”

Question 19:

DS: Iron separation seems vital nowadays & perhaps more important than depth. Can detectors truly “see thru the iron”, or is “unmasking” best achieved at this point with smaller or DD coils?

Dave: “Mostly yes on all counts.”

John “Nice one Dave.”

Question 20:

DS: Seems specialized detectorists feel frequency/khz is so important now, claiming a 7khz Coin$trike for example is for coins not relics. Is 13khz great for all-around hunting, & why don’t we see say 25khz units for relic hunters?

“In general, higher frequencies are better for smaller and lower conductivity stuff, and lower frequencies are better for larger and higher conductivity stuff. Relic hunters are generally looking for stuff that is smaller or lower conductivity than US clad, copper, and silver coinage. However, frequency is not critical, and a 7 kHz machine can be good on relics and a 13 kHz machine can be good on coins.

Metal detector manufacturers generally avoid the 20-30kHz range because of electrical interference from military communications.”

Question 21:

DS: There have already been two new models released for Fisher in the past 5 months, the F-75 and the F-4. Is this a sign of things to come?

Dave/John: “Yep.”

Question 22:

DS: Are there any tricks or tips for the F4, T-2 or F-75 you’d like for users to know about?

Dave: “The F4 is pretty straightforward. Only tip is to use autotune all metals if you’re in an area that’s relatively free of trash to locate targets, and then switch to discrimination to ID them. You’ll get more deeper stuff that way.

The T2 and F75 are very sensitive machines, which makes them more vulnerable to electrical interference than a less aggressive machine like the F4. And, the T2 and F75 incorporate a number of improvements in discriminator design, some of which affect sensitivity independently of the sensitivity control setting. This caused more confusion than we expected. Fortunately most owners are getting used to it.

My personal recommendation is to select the discrimination process you want, then dial in the discrimination level you want, then set any notches you want, and then after doing all that set the sensitivity setting just below the edge of noise. Don’t be afraid to crank the sensitivity ‘way down if necessary: the T2 and F75 are still hot machines even at low sensitivity settings.”

John: “Slow down and listen to what the machine is telling you.”

Question 23:

DS: There are lots of forum rumors floating around in regards to the possible return of a Fisher water detector…. Any comment?

Dave: “Marketing dept. has released information indicating that a water machine called a “CZ-21” is in the works.”

Question 24:

DS: What’s the most challenging part of designing metal detectors for the hobby market?

Dave: “Psychology.”

Closing:

DS: Do you have any parting words for all the www.detectorstuff.com readers and metal detecting fans at large that are following your work?

“We’re building on a legacy that was created by many people. The progress we make is the work of many people. Of these many people, most never get any credit other than a paycheck and maybe a thank-you.

I would like to name two of those unsung heroes. Javier, who assembles prototype boards faster than anyone else on the planet and somehow does that while making no assembly errors. Aurora, who worked hard to make sure every T2 went out right, even while she was losing her fight with cancer.

First Texas Products is still benefiting from the genius of George Payne, whose basic target ID system has gone into more metal detectors sold, than all other target ID systems put together. Thanks, George.

Finally, I would like to thank my former employers for the privilege of having worked for them.”

DS: Thanks again for taking the time to answer these questions! I have no doubt folks will thoroughly enjoy reading your responses. In closing, if there’s a question, that as you read this you thought “Now why didn’t they ask *blank*?” please feel free to add it and I’ll make sure it’s included on the site!

“What are your favorite designs?”

Dave: “This will probably surprise you. My all-time favorite designs are the Tesoro Diablo Micromax, and the little Bounty Hunter two-knobber that goes by several different names and retails in the $55-75 range.”

John: “My favorite unit so far is the Land Ranger. The T2 come in at a close second.”

DetectorStuff: We hope our readers have enjoyed this interview as much as we have! I want to personally thank the great folks at First Texas /Fisher for allowing us to interview Dave and John. These two gentlemen are extremely busy, and taking the time out of their hectic schedules for this is hugely appreciated! Special thanks also goes out to Bill Ladd who thought up quite a few of the great questions for the interview.

Thanks again,

Mark Ellington & Bill Ladd

www.detectorstuff.com

No related posts.

Related posts brought to you by Yet Another Related Posts Plugin.

DS: Hi Mr. Saad! Thanks for taking the time to answer a few questions about the very unique F5! There is a lot of interest in the metal detecting hobby about this unusual detector… First of all, tell us about yourself…. How long have you been designing metal detectors?

Jorge: Good day Mr. Ellington. It is a pleasure to have the opportunity of speaking with you. I first learned about the metal detector’s technology barely three years ago, when I was hired in First Texas Products and got under the expert lead of Dave Johnson and John Gardiner, who you know are two of the top leading engineers in the Industry. Before that I used to write firmware for other kind of products.

DS: What machines have you had a hand in designing?

Jorge: I was involved in the design of the Bounty Hunter Platinum and Gold; and the Fisher F5 machines.

DS: What’s it like working at First Texas? (The people you work with, the philosophy, atmosphere, etc.)

Jorge: FTP is unique in many aspects. We have a very friendly and open environment. Dave, John and Mark are great people to work around. We are quick with a joke and always on the mood to help each other. Our CEO is also a great guy to work for. We consider ourselves happy to be working here, and that adds a lot to our team. In addition the philosophy of FTP has always been geared towards overall customer experience and satisfaction; as a result here in the Engineering Department we keep open and in touch with as many people using our products as we can spare time for. To learn from their experiences and preferences is vital to develop the metal detectors they dream about – or at the very least get close. As close as physics will allow! We are lucky to enjoy a wonderful support and feedback from our customers and field testers via forum chats, email and phone calls. Those guys are an indispensable part of this team!

Read more of this great interview below!….

DS: Okay…now down to F5! While detectors from most companies seem to be moving more in the direction of membrane type buttons, (and the F5 does have a few too) the F5 has 4 knobs… why did you decide to utilize knobs?

Jorge: Dave was tired of cumbersome menu systems and wanted to come out with a menu-less environment that was easy to use. It would have knobs and buttons for each function without resembling a 747 cockpit too much, and it would be user-friendly. It was quite a challenge, but we finally came out with the right balance of knobs, buttons and information on the LCD to make the F5 what we intended.

DS: What are the unique features of the F5?

Jorge: Certainly the user interface is quite unique on the F5. No other detector in the market offers the richness of information the F5 provides at a glance, combined with such an easy control set. It is the detector anyone would love to have had to learn the tips and tricks of the serious hobbyist, all without having to concern themselves much with a machine’s tricks and… idiosyncrasies. The F5 is hot and lets you concentrate in what is really important. What the F5 is telling you is: Learn how to detect! You don’t have to learn how to operate me! That is a sweet machine, really. Now, do not let the easiness of the interface deceive you; the F5 is a serious detector. It has enough bite to be considered a fair gold prospector and be up there competing fiercely in its price range.

DS: How tough was it to get things “right” when designing something this different?

Jorge: It is always tough. First you have to keep your ear on the ground and figure out what is it that your customers desire the most (our Marketing and Customer Service departments are very good at that, thankfully). Then you come out with a wish list and start working on it. Unfortunately at the current state-of-the-art some of the features cancel each other, so you have to choose what are the best features you can put together that will work really good. Then you design over your spec fighting costs as hard as you can, so you can deliver a good product for the money. Finally the fun part: Lots of going back and forth replacing code, making changes to schematics, adding features, removing obsolete functions, optimizing resources, debugging, see what the field testers have to say and if they trash it all out, thank them for their hard work and start all over again. It has, however, its huge reward: When you finally put a finished product in a customer’s hands and they just can’t keep ‘em off… makes you only want to jump into your lab chair and engage with another project as soon as you can.

DS: What’s your favorite feature of the F5 and why?

Jorge: I absolutely love the almost non-existing learning curve of the F5. You can take a newbie out with it, explain what the controls are for and start detecting right on the spot – nothing complicated to learn or to know beforehand about the machine. You can focus on the fun stuff right away. You could almost ignore the manual to start using it! (I would not recommend that though – the manual has some great practical advice and detail you will not get no matter how much practice you have). I also really like the continuous phase readout. Gave us a bit of trouble and few headaches, but we finally got it right. Thank you Mr. Johnson.

DS: There’s a gain and threshold control knob side-by-side on the F5. What is the design intent for their relationship to each other?

Jorge: Well this is a tricky one, because it involves some trade secrets. I can tell you however that almost every other machine in the market has a combination of Gain and Threshold combined in a single “sensitivity” control of some sort. By breaking the sensitivity control into its factors the F5 response can be controlled to match the exigencies of a wider variety of field conditions: Noise, soil types and compositions, EMI and other interferences.

DS: I’ve heard you’ve been lead Designer on the F5… is that true?

Jorge: The F5 project was assigned to me. I coordinated the firmware writing efforts and wrote most of the software for it. Mr. Johnson however did all the hardware design. I tried to help (and one or two minor ideas made it to the hardware design too), but then, how do you help Dave to design a metal detector??

DS: Who else had a ‘hand’ in the design of the F5?

Jorge: Lots of talent were pulled into this project. John Gardiner helped with some hard routines, particularly on the Target ID engine. Dave Johnson took care of the hardware design and revisions; Mark Krieger wrote a crucial piece of firmware and also supervised the final layout stages. Marvin Jones had an expert hand in the layout process too. The mechanical package (including the shape and size of the LCD, the position of the knobs and buttons, the colors and the materials, the mechanicals of the tubes and shafts – and everything else) was the result of a coordinated effort between Engineering, Production and Marketing. While the F5 is my project, I see it as the result of a successfully coordinated effort of many other people.

DS: It appears the F5 shares the housing with the F4 and F2. Are there any other similarities?

Jorge: No. The F2 and the F4 share the same basic platform, but not the F5. The F5 is coming from an entirely new platform and its software is new as well, though some of the concepts were borrowed from the F70’s software.

DS: Could knob driven interfaces be a future trend for Fisher

Jorge: I personally fell in love with those knobs, but that is for the customers to say, really. Now they know we can do nice, sweet, knobby interfaces. How would they like to see more of that? We will see – we are listening. In the meantime, we are working on some other interesting propositions, some of which include knobs. I think you will like what is coming.

DS: The audio characteristics are unique on the F5 compared to other Fisher designs… was this difficult?

Jorge: It was more a result of the platform the F5 came from. The difficult part was to convey as much information as possible about the target without getting noisy. That is always a challenge on new designs.

DS: Are there plans for other coil options for the F5?

Jorge: Yes! We are looking forward having some accessory coils for the F5 and other machines. We will get there soon.

DS: All the new Fisher machines have incredible battery life! Is the F5 also super efficient?

Jorge: You can expect more than forty hours on a fresh pair of batteries with the F5.

DS: How in the heck are you guys at Fisher able to crank out so many innovative metal detectors at the pace you’ve set?

Jorge: Each of us have a hammock beneath the workbench, drink about four gallons of espresso a week, do not take vacations and see wives and relatives twice a year when they let us off the lab. Seriously, the creative muscle of this team is quite impressive. I think you will like what we have on the burner for the next season.

DS: What’s in store for Fisher Fans in the future? (if you can give us a sneak peek!)

Jorge: Well, Dave has been walking around mumbling funny numbers for more than two weeks now. Our lead engineer has been working on some of the most recent wants of our customers. I can tell you, Fisher is up to the bat again and has its major players on the move. You will not be disappointed.

DS: Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions!

Jorge: Quite the contrary Sr., thank you for being a channel of communication and for all the time and effort you put on this hobby.

No related posts.

Related posts brought to you by Yet Another Related Posts Plugin.